12 Comments:

I'm sorry I can't imagine how "vanilla" would sound with a Brooklyn accent. Could you please break it down for me?

By  Mr. Walters, at 2/16/2006 12:43 PM  

We pronounce the "i" in vanilla like the "e" in "tell", not like the "i" in "ill".

One of my favorite sites is Merriam-Webster Online, where they have audio examples of pronunciations. Whenever I say something my husband thinks sounds odd (like mauve) I go there and show him how my pronunciation is valid, too. Although "radiator", Brooklyn-style, isn't gonna show up in any dictionary anytime soon.

By  Angela, at 2/16/2006 12:56 PM  

Yep, couldn't be more southern. You think the Brooklin gets a bad rap try talking with a West Texas drawl. Put it to ya this way. "King of the Hill" is set in my home town and we think they sound like Yankee's.

-muttly

By  Shawn, at 2/16/2006 3:45 PM  

There's nothing shameful about having a regional accent. It makes life interesting. What I don't like is when people move to New York and then make fun of how I "tawk". Imagine if I moved down to Texas and mocked everyone and acted like they were retarded because they "talk funny". I bet I wouldn't last long.

That's so funny about "King of the Hill". You're from Arlen? How cool. I love that show. I suppose the TV people thought if the accents were too thick they'd have to put subtitles on the show, and you know how much Americans like to read while watching cartoons. ;^)

As a side note, my oldest brother has lived in South Carolina for twenty years, so now he's got a hybrid New York/Southern accent. It's very funny.

By  Angela, at 2/16/2006 3:59 PM  

First of all, I love "King of the Hill." What a great show.

Secondly, I was blown away to see that the dialect test you linked to had a question about whether "Mary/Merry/Marry" are pronounced the same or differently. I've been talking about those three words and how some accents pronounce them all the same for YEARS and I've never heard anyone else reference it. I don't know if that's common or not, but I honestly never heard anyone else comment on it.

Thirdaly...wow...some of your recent posts are really hitting areas where I have a lot to say. I've been fascinated with and a keen observer of accents for quite some time. This will be another long response, but as it turns out, there's minimal typing involved because I can copy and paste my thoughts from an old letter I wrote. Lucky for me, I save all my old emails. Here are some thoughts on accents—and specifically the New York accent—that I shared with a friend several years back. It was an Internet friend, and we never heard each other speak. The subject of accents came up, and I think some of the points here are the same ones I'd make if I wer typing from scratch.

------
I am quite fascinated by, and quite perceptive of, accents. I learned a great deal about accents when I went off to school in far upstate New York.

I, of course, being from downstate New York, am quite aware of the fact that I have an accent that's very closely related to (if not down right the
same in many respects) as a New York accent.

Now, I believe there are many factors—with a New York accent anyway—that affect how strong one's accent is. At the risk of sounding haughty, I think your education level and how much "swagger" you throw into your speech—how much attitude you pack in your punch—really contributes to the "severity" of your dialect.

Still, most people around here fail to understand one thing. The fact that if you're from the greater New York area—no matter how "toned down" you think your accent is—all you have to do is open your mouth for two seconds and it's usually totally clear that you're from the area (to someone who isn't). Which is, sometimes, too bad, as the accent is often deemed unattractive to folks who are not used to it.

I learned that from living away from the area. After a while, I'd hear people with particularly thick New York accents and think, "Holy crap, that sounds horrible!" Again, I do think there is variation though among the accent itself; some have more subdued New York accents, if you can picture that.

But, to digress for a moment: that point about the accent being apparent no matter what was something it took me a while to learn. I had been away for a while and I had already become an accent enthusiast when this one occurrence happened:

I was traveling through Utica, NY— 2 hours from where I lived in Oswego, NY—and I engaged in a long conversation with an employee at a store. I think it was Radio Shack. Anyway, I was cognizant of my accent during the conversation and was actually making a point to suppress it somewhat, as folks from Long Island often had a real bad stereotype in those parts. It's not that I was ashamed of how I sounded or where I was from, but I was getting tired of having to defend it all the time, and sometimes when engaging in a conversation with someone like a store clerk, I wasn't alwasy in the mood to be a "curiosity" for people. The prevailing thought was that we were a bunch of rich primadonnas with mega-attitudes and egos. (In my estimation, it's an example of the few bad apples adage—most people from here aren't assholes, it's just that we do have a slightly larger percentage of those types than perhaps other areas. So even though it's a minority, it seems like a lot...) Anyway, towards the end of the conversation—and remember, I thought I had been being sly—I had mentioned that I wasn't from the area and that I was from "downstate."

The guy laughed and said, "Uh...yeah! I can tell!" And he said it in such a way that it was like, "No shit, Sherlock!" It was totally transparent.

I was blown away and thought to myself, "What the heck!? I listened to what I said the whole time. I never did the trademark o-drawl that we have ("DAWG" (dog), "CAUWFEE" (coffee)), and I also know I didn't do any of the other trademark things: drop any Rs off the end of words: "Mutha," "Fatha."

It was only after that encounter that I got deep into the nuaces of it and realized that although those two things are the ones people talk about, there are a million others that contribute. We drop Rs on the inside of words, too, although, unlike a Boston accent, we pronounce the rest of the word as though it's still there. "Park" can become "Pa(r)hk" around here, but it usually becomes more like "Pack" in Boston.

We also have unusually flat long "I" sounds, and sharp, short "A" sounds. Plus many other things. [Editor's note: like "FLAR-idda" (vs. Floor-idda), which Angela mentioned.]

It's fascinating.

For the record, I know I have a relatively low key accent compared to others. But from my lessons learned above, I know it still probably sounds quite apparent to someone who doesn't hear it everyday.

But the weirdest thing is, where I went to school, people with downstate New York accents were stereotyped as kind of being, you know, like having attitudes and stuff and the accent became identified with it. But it's just an accent—you live there, you've got it, whether you're a hot shot, or you are a 70-year-old grandmother, or a toddler learning to talk. Just like down south. It's just the way we talk.

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Well that's the end of my letter. It's also interesting to think of those things that are more dialect/lingo related than purely "accent." Like, do you say "Aven-new" or "Aven-you" when pronouncing "Avenue?"

By  Steve, at 2/16/2006 7:30 PM  

Oh my god, Steve, your comments are funny on so many levels.

First off, which was actually your last remark: When I say the street I live on I say "Aven-new" but when I say the street I grew up on (till I was six anyway, my grandma still lives there) I say "Aven-you". I don't know why. Maybe it's because my family says "Aven-you".

And the Mary/Marry/Merry thing, I first heard about that in college when I took a bullshit course on public speaking. I went to art school, so you have to understand how lacking the liberal arts classes were, but the speech class was interesting because of the teacher. When he wasn't teaching this throw-away course at FIT, he trained people how to erase their accents! He had a everyone say "Mary/Marry/Merry" out loud. I'm one of the people who pronounced them all different. There were a couple of people in the class who said them all the same. It was so strange.

My husband is from Rochester, so he and his family have that weird, upstate twang. Like they say "Dad" with a really long, nasal "aaaa" sound. It's the only defense I have against his taunts over my defects (Florida, orange, foreign, dog, MAUVE). Thankfully, I do usually pronounce my "r"s, but you should hear some of my relatives talk! It's like listening to the Soprano's. Sort of.

There is a definite difference between Brooklyn and Long Island. I can't describe it, but there is. My mom is very Long Island, my Brooklyn relatives are very Brooklyn. I'm sort of a mishmash.

I just thought of something funny and now I'm sitting here, laughing. At my old job, almost everyone was either not from New York, or wealthy NYC people who didn't have accents because I'm sure they were educated right out of them in whatever expensive colleges their parents sent them to. I remember sitting in meetings with my boss and this one particular girl (who went to private school with Amanda Peet) and I always kind of felt like a moron when I spoke. But the funny thing was that I had created this website/character thing that Disney optioned and we were making into a TV show, so I was a Very Important Person, even though I sounded like a dorky New Yawker. And even funnier was the fact my show was set on Long Island. The mom was voiced by the woman who played "Janice" on Friends, the main girl character was
Heather Matarazzo (from "Welcome to the Dollhouse"), her friend was played by Blossom (remember that show? Mayim Bialik also played the young version of Bette Midler in "Beaches" so you can guess how she sounded) and my main character (who wasn't even from earth) was played by Natasha Lyonne. So basically, here were these two urbane professional people and there I was, somehow glorifying this horrid accent with out really meaning to. God, it seems like a lifetime ago.

And another thing: crap. I say that all the time. Once I said it to a client, he was from Australia, and he said, "Crap? Who says that?" I just laughed and said, "I do." It's slightly better than saying "Shit" to a client, don't you think?

By  Angela, at 2/16/2006 8:28 PM  

Arlen... no... but Abilene/Sweetwater area is just over the hill. I think our slow monotone tawk has something to do with the chemicals slipped into all those Luanne Platters we ate at the Cafeteria.

- muttly

By  Anonymous, at 2/16/2006 9:12 PM  

:^D

By  Angela, at 2/16/2006 9:18 PM  

[[[[[ Oh my god, Steve, your comments are funny on so many levels. ]]]]]

Like that I don't ever proofread them and they're always filled with typos? :)

I cringe when I look back at some of them, but, hell, that's why I love blogging and other Internet publishing—it's so low key.

[[[[ He had a everyone say "Mary/Marry/Merry" out loud. I'm one of the people who pronounced them all different. ]]]]]

Right, it's probably like "M-air-ree," "Maah-ree," and "Meh-ry." But those upstaters I knew used to say 'em all like I say "Merry."

[[[[ My husband is from Rochester, ]]]]]]

I really dug Rochester. I knew people who lived in Pennfield & Pittsford, which were suburbs there. Rochester was known for Kodak and one other big industry. Xerox maybe? But we found it to be legendary for this horrendous dive of a food joint called "Nich Tahoes," which was just an amazing experience if you like that kind of greasy-grill dining. They had an entree called a "garbage plate" and it was a brilliant disaster. Oh, and also a pretty famous music store called "The House of Guitars." Your husband probably knows about those places.

[[[[ so he and his family have that weird, upstate twang. Like they say "Dad" with a really long, nasal "aaaa" sound. ]]]]]]

Right, it's all in the difference in the vowels. The long i's are also quite different.

[[[[ It's the only defense I have against his taunts over my defects (Florida, orange, foreign, ]]]]]]

My wife is from the Poughkeepsie area, so she's sort of from downstate—she says Boston and Dog with the drawl—but not totally, so there are a couple of differences. And the "Florida"/"Orange" one is one of them. She always says, "It's an O-R; how do you get FLAR-ida out of that?"

[[[[[ dog ]]]]]]]

"Dog" is the one about this accent that makes no sense whatsoever. Sure, we drawl on "Coffee" and "Dawn" and stuff like that, but we're totally not being consistent with "dog," because "hog" and "bog" are not drawled out.

But I used to have a prettygood comeback for words like "dawn." I'd say, "Look, when you bust my chops for the way I say 'dog,' you always say, 'It sounds like your saying D-A-W-G.' Well, I'll give you that much. But if you agree that D-A-W-G is that drawl sound, how could you not agree that D-A-W-N should be said that way." I thought it was a pretty good argument, but mostly people weren't listening.


[[[[[ Thankfully, I do usually pronounce my "r"s, but you should hear some of my relatives talk! It's like listening to the Soprano's. Sort of. ]]]]

I know exactly what you mean. I actually find it hysterical when I hear tapes of myself speaking when I was 18, 19. My accent was much more pronounced. I think it was because I spoke faster and with that more urgent sense of "coolness." Nowadays I'm more...ahem....refined! Or, I'm just much less cool.


[[[[[[ There is a definite difference between Brooklyn and Long Island. I can't describe it, but there is. My mom is very Long Island, my Brooklyn relatives are very Brooklyn. ]]]]]]

I wanna figure out the differences! I've been trying for a long time, but all I can come up with is variety in both regions. Maybe I just don't know enough people from Brooklyn to get the proper cross section for my observations.


[[[[ I just thought of something funny and now I'm sitting here, laughing. --snipped--So basically, here were these two urbane professional people and there I was, somehow glorifying this horrid accent with out really meaning to. God, it seems like a lifetime ago. ]]]

That's a great story.

[[[[[ And another thing: crap. I say that all the time. Once I said it to a client, he was from Australia, and he said, "Crap? Who says that?" I just laughed and said, "I do." It's slightly better than saying "Shit" to a client, don't you think? ]]]]

Oh, absolutely. "Crap" is a great word. "I don't want to deal with any of that crap" or "this design is total crap." It's the perfect in-between word. "Shoot" sounds too phony, and "shit" is sometimes too vulgar. "Crap" covers it all and It shows that you mean business, even though you stopped short of using the big s-word.

By  Steve, at 2/16/2006 9:37 PM  

Nooooo---The garbage plate! That's disgusting. I went there once, ugh, once. Once was enough. Looks like vomit. Oh, and I got the coolest Adam Ant t-shirt at House of Guitars.

Bausch & Lomb is also in Rochester, along with Xerox and Kodak. See how much Rochester trivia I know? Aside from it being my husband's hometown, it's also where my best friend from college is from. They grew up together, which is how I met my husband. Anyway, I've been hearing about House of Guitars and Nick Tahou's for the past sixteen years. Crap, has it been sixteen years? Lord, I'm old.

There is an interesting article on Wikipedia about New York accents. I found it by googling "Brooklynese". I don't remember why I was looking that up, but then I don't remember half of what I'm doing or for what reason. I especially like the pronunciation guide.

When I was in high school, I somehow got roped into doing the morning announcements. They were on closed circuit tv, so everyone in every homeroom had to watch me and a couple of other kids recite the pledge, read the lacrosse scores and announce whose birthday it was. I have a a vhs tape of me doing this for a few days. It's truly dreadful. I was so sure (at the time) that I didn't sound like all the other idiots at my school. I really made an effort to speak properly, especially since the English teacher who ran the tv announcements program demanded we speak Standard English. She was especially harsh about how we pronounced "stand" and "flag" as in "Please stand for the pledge. I pledge allegiance, to the flag..." It was so hard to say those words right! You know what I mean, I'm too tired to figure out how to write it phonetically. Not to say them all nasally. So I have this wretched tape of me, wearing really big, black glasses, with my hair dyed black, scalp half-shaved and the rest in a Sumo pony tail, sounding exactly like every other LawnGuylander I went to school with. It's absolutely awful. The best part, though, is that I had to read this bit about a pep rally, but two days in a row I called it a "prep rally". It was a total Freudian slip, I swear, but very fitting because the only people who went to those things were the preps.

By  Angela, at 2/16/2006 10:43 PM  

That was a really great article about the accents. It is nice to see they commented on much of the same things that I observed, except they said it a lot more eloquently and used all these funky "pronunciation symbols" that I don't know anything about. Plus I learned a bunch of new things, too.

I particularly thought it was interesting how they mentioned the whole "terlet" (toilet) thing and how it really is a part of the accent that is pretty much on the way out. I always knew about that kind of thing, but the only person I ever actually heard use phrases like that was my grandfather, who was of that older generation.

As for Nick Tahou's and the "Garbage Plate"—I figured you might be repulsed by it. Much like White Castle, it is much more of a guy-appreciated-thing and the women who enjoyed such cuisine were fewer and farther between.

Those pictures from Flikr of the Garbage Plate cracked me up. God, it looked more awful than I remember. But it was good! (Again, if you appreciate those kind of eats.)

By  Steve, at 2/17/2006 9:27 AM  

I've taken that quiz before and it was interesting. I'm a native Californian and the wonders of television and such, I'd like to think I speak with a non-regional specific accent. But alas no.

Dude, what am I going to do? :D

By  MsBHaven, at 2/17/2006 9:17 PM  

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